Light and Dark incantation

Having been Much Confused in my mind as to All This talk about incanting, Dark, Light and Whathaveyou, I decided that it might Clear Things Up splendidly if I asked those as seemed to me Most Directly Concerned in such matters to all Answer the Same Questions, then by comparing answers and So Forth to have More Understanding. I am not sure I have succeeded in this, but am making All This Available to others in simlar Confusion, that between us we might Know Better what was doing.
The answers I had I have Transcribed without Much Alteration, noted as such where done. I have by no means Spoken With Everyone who have an opinion on These Things, but some information Better Than None, and no discredit implied to those who Were Not Asked. The questions were asked mostly just after Reunification, since when there have been Things Happen such as the Return of the Dark Ancestors, which timing should be Borne in Mind when reading these.
Consider also when reading that Opinions Do Change, therefore the words here being Accurate Record of what was thought then, but those involved may have New Thoughts. However the answers are Still Relevant, and would serve as a Starting Point.


Concerning patterns and suchlike – definitions from PapeWaio
I were also confused about the Whole Pattern Thing – this is how Pape explained it, which give a Context for What Follows and so worth reading also.
There are three aspects to us. The physical part, which is your body, The mind which is what makes you unique and our Pattern, which is what makes us alive. When we die, the body crumbles (and is eaten by worms) as it cannot remain without a pattern to hold it together. The Mind and Pattern travel to the Ancestral plane where the mind remains with the ancestors. The life pattern is returned to the plane of life (Where healers draw power from) and is born again to a new body and mind. This rebirth is the cycle of life. And it is this cycle that gives the ancestors power. An unliving is when the pattern is corrupted, so it goes to the planes of unlife instead of the ancestoirs. It is not reborn and remains with its mind in eternal suffering. It can also be summoned to our world, although as it is not of our world we can dismiss it. As Ancestors draw power from the cycle of life, each pattern corrupted is power lost from the ancestors.

The Questions

  1. What is a Dark Incantor and is it a Good Thing?
  2. What is a Light Incantor and is it a Good Thing?
  3. What are ‘True’ Dark Incantors, and are they a Good Thing?
  4. Is Dark Papa Tik Tok a necromancer or is he Misunderstood?
  5. Did Anything Important happen during the Inner Council meeting, if so what?
  6. What is the Incantors Guild for?
  7. Is Pape’s multi-coloured tabard collection a Good Thing?
  8. What would the Reunification Of The Incantors mean and is this a Good Thing?

Note that by Good Thing I do not mean Nice thing, or Gentle thing, but a thing as is a Necessary Part of life, and the denying of which therefore leading to Bad Things.

The answers of Dark Papa Tic Tok

  1. Dark Inkantin iz da worship ov dark ancestaz, those ov war, pain, tourture, death and ova nazty fings dat iz in r livez wez may not likez em but dez there. Light boyz worship ancestorz ov healing, peace love an flower pressin, dey worship them, wez worship r’s which uzualy putz uz on da opozit feild, usualyz a battle fieldz.
  2. Da lightz iz cumin from da big city fings, ov civilization, places where der is not much war and easy livin, we are feral and shamanic mostly, in constant war an’ where der iz loads an loads ov def an stuff. Iz it a good fing??? It just iz, nature of da younga an olda races wez iz oppozits dat define each ova, der iz no night wiv owt day, no def wiv no life.
  3. True Dark Inkanaz……Now dey comez, nowz Tic Tok haz done all da ‘ard work an risked iz neck ……..bastards. Dey come ta uz now da dark ancestaz namez iz called an ‘eard once again,
  4. Necomancer ha ha ha…….. errm Tic Tok iz az evil an Necormantic just az dat next bloke. ” Your round Tic Tok” ” Right youz are Canis” A I was seyin’ Iz not evil iv jest good lookin’
  5. Council meetin’ o yea…Tic Tok blamed fer beein’ late,Tic Tok blamed fer kidnapin’ dark dyfid, Tic Tok blamed fer raise too many dead, Tic Tok blamed fer Skauld, Tic Tok told ta stop eating brains in meeting…Tic Tok Blamed fer killin’ Dawn der head knight. Tic Tok blamed fer ever fing…….Sum fings said about healaz new guild poicy-whatz it but nofing usfulJihad cumz in an” ‘as a go at Tic Tok an Durath….. Durth doesn’t let dark inkantaz kill im on da wayz out…….Def Jestaz sayz sumfing but no one cared sumfing about sorcerorz fings……….. no nofing importantz ‘appened.

The answers of Papewaio, fist of the Incantors

  1. A Dark Incantor, as defined by the Vipers, is an incantor of an Ancestor of life. The only thing that marks them Dark is the opinions and attitudes of the Ancestor as reflected in the worshippers.
  2. A Light Incantor is an incantor of an Ancestor of life. The only thing that marks them Light is the opinions and attitudes of the Ancestor as reflected in the worshippers.
    As I had said, most Pantheons have both types of Ancestors. Norsca has Odin and Loki, Lunas has a Light and Dark side. The powers they draw and the essence they worship is the same their demeanour and opinions differ. Neither are ‘Good’ or ‘Bad’ things in respect to the Guild, but on the ‘Nice and Fluffy’ Scale, Light incantors are, Dark Incantors aren’t.
  3. ‘True’ Dark Incantors are, what we called Dark Incantors up until the Vipers declared themselves Dark Incantors. They do not worship ancestors of life. As best as I can tell they worship unliving Ancestors. They would Worship Maar. They are Bad, very Bad, They corrupt patterns and deny their essence to the Ancestors. They are very Bad.
  4. Tic Tok I think would like to be a Necromancer. He likes the idea of Dabbling in Dark Powers. He however is learning the restrictions of his beliefs in so far that whilst Unliving might seem Dark and suit his needs, they are patterns taken from the cycle of life that his ancestors need like we need blood. For him, to corrupt a pattern to unlife is to take a blade and cut his ancestor. When he realises this fully he may rethink his ways. He is not at the moment a Necromancer (And I doubt he has the power).
  5. I’d doubt it, but I am a cynical ex Warrior.
  6. This is a question I have wondered. Since the return of Incantor power, the Guild was reformed by combat incantors in the Dragons to fight Unliving. However, we know the guild existed before then, why it was started, I do not know.Currently we provide teaching and research to members. We provide peaceful surroundings for contemplation. A place where no prejudice of Ancestral belief will take place and a pooling of ancestral resources to destroy Unliving.
  7. My New wardrobe means that if I sewed them all together I could become a Medici. A tabards colours are just a tabards colours. They are symbolic. I choose to wear both Dark and light Tabards as a sign of accepting both styles. I am both a light and Dark Incantor.
  8. The Reunification is a very good thing. It means that all Incantors of all paths will come together and fight common enemies, not one other.

Answers of Cardinal Elbrath Damont

  1. A Dark Incantor is one whose Ancestors have a more ‘selfish’ attitude (I will expand further in Question 3). It is a fact of life & is only Bad if there is no balance. (repel your enemy over a cliff to trouble you no more)
  2. A Light Incantor is the opposite to a Dark Incantor (Ancestor wishes to help others before themselves. Repel your enemy away and depart in the opposite direction)
  3. True Dark Incantors. Yes I do know of them. It is a phrase I have termed to distinguish between the ‘Viper’ dark Incantors (who have access to the normal Incantations) and those who have more sinister powers. The Convocation of Guilds showed what powers ‘True Dark Incantors’ can wield; Fatal on touch, location to zero. I have encountered such people before & they also appear to have some control over unliving.
    Are they Good ….. Interest of Debate ….. Personally I would say no, yet everything must be balanced so there is an argument to say otherwise.
  4. Is Dark Papa TikTok a necromancer or is he misunderstood?
    Misunderstood …. Necromancers are ‘Dark Mages’ if you will, Tik Tok is an Incantor (I don’t think he has mage powers) …. anyway he has exhibited none of the more ‘sinister’ powers so I would say that he probably has not reached the ‘Dark Side’ yet.
  5. No idea I’m afraid I was not in attendance & Durith has gone to the Planes of Light & did not leave a return date.
  6. The Incantors guild is to serve the needs of incantors throughout the known lands.
  7. It is neither good nor bad, just pointless. It is the duty of the Inner Circle to hold ALL Ancestors in reverence. Pape should have been doing this already yet he seemed to indicate by his words that he has only just decided to do this. But then again Pape’s actions cannot be said to be quite normal…. Since the assault on Skald.
  8. Reunification is a good thing, we must all put aside our differences and work together to our goals not fragmented against one another. It was more to bring the Viper Incantors and all other incantors back together once more to work together rather than apart.

Answers of Jihad, Archbishop of Tain, including his comments on Cardinal Elbrath’s answers

  1. See 2.
  2. Dark Incantors when capitalised are, I understand, those that raise and control Unliving, unlike the Viper dark incantors that are an acknowledgment of the more primordial and primitive side of things. I do feel kinship here as a devotee of Fenris, but feel that to style oneself ‘dark’ or ‘light’ is rather to miss the point.
    My belief is that being ‘dark’ or ‘light’ is NOT a good thing, and that those who have been in the Guild until now and now style themselves or accept the moniker ‘light incantors’ have not been balanced in their outlook. To be an incantor is to accept all Ancestors equally and to deny any is to invite trouble. Elbrath’s examples are examples of the individual’s outlook on life, not necessarily the Ancestor’s. A ‘light’ Incantor might well repel an enemy over a cliff if that enemy would otherwise go on to slaughter half a village, and a ‘dark’ incantor might well repel an enemy away and leave if the consequences were too great.
  3. I believe I answered this in number 2, as for them being a ‘Good Thing’, that would depends on their motives and ones point of view. I do not think they are a good thing, but then I object to control over unliving and anything that does not acknowledge balance and the Path.
  4. Tik Tok is, to my mind, neither a necromancer nor misunderstood. He evinces the desire to raise the dead, or at least those within his group do. He treats with the Wretched Man for control of the Tome and Eye knowing full well the potential results of his actions and is in the service of King Gustav, who is tolerated remarkably well by the Incantors Guild for what it is said he does. Tik Tok is, in himself, a primal force that requires tempering, rather as a harbour wall breaks the force of the waves.
  5. I was called before the Inner Council and my views on the Guild, Tik Tok and various other matters solicited, as well as some rather uncouth demands to know the reasons that people have been joining the Church.
  6. (note I have here missed out some personal debate, including only Jihad’s thoughts on what the Guild is said to be and should be)
    “To serve the needs of the people of Edreja and aid them in communication and relations with their Ancestors by using our Ancestral gifts for their benefit.”
    To this I further add: “To offer spiritual guidance and protection, even from the Ancestors themselves where necessary for Ancestors, like people, have their own goals and agendas which at times may conflict with the common good.”
  7. Pape’s multi coloured tabard collection is a Thing, and he could benefit much from spending time in Sicilija where they would rapidly educate him in fashion and style and point out that ‘the tabard maketh not the man’.
  8. If the Inner Circle had been working correctly there would be no differences to put aside, the fact that there are ‘dark’ incantors would imply that this side of things has been neglected. There are only incantors, and this ‘Reunification’ is a farcical thing designed by people who have made a mistake to bring those terming themselves ‘dark’ under the auspices and thumb of the Incantor’s Guild.
    As for working together to goals. I quote ‘To serve the needs of incantors throughout the known lands’, which seems not particularly noble and an extension of that which I believe to be the ‘dark’ incantors goal ‘To serve our own needs’.
    I do not believe it to be a ‘Good Thing’ since it implies that it attempts to bring all incantors in line to the same ends, no matter the conflicting and disparate natures and views of their Ancestors. The Church accepts these things as fact and only myself and the other ‘higher echelon’ members are expected to venerate and revere any and all Ancestors on behalf of members. All other incantors within the Church have the right to not venerate or revere any Ancestor they wish. Even as people bear prejudices against one another, so do the Ancestors.

(Note the debate between Jihad and Elbrath went on for Quite Some Time, but my scribe have Limited Patience and ink and I have therefore Not Continued Here.)

The answers of Szegele of Melnibone

  1. There are two types of people calling themselves ‘Dark Incantors’. Firstly there are those like ourselves. Unlike those who condemn us, we acknowledge the fact that not all of our ancestors were ‘cute and fluffy and nice’. In fact many (if not most) of them were real B*st*rds (if you will excuse my Estragalian). Because of this they do not respond to the ‘Oh, you are so nice, please help me!’ kind of entreaty that some incantors use. We call upon our ancestors in a much more open and honest way. It is more of bargaining and less worship – although having said that, some of them are easily placated by worship: just because they have power does not necessarily make them smart. Because of this difference in outlook, we tend not to have such an extreme view of things like unliving.
    Whilst we possess the same power to dismiss the unliving as the ‘Fluffy’ incantors, we are much less likely to use it unless provoked. We do not see the ‘corruption’ of pattern in an unliving, we see a change of pattern. It is no less valid than the pattern of the living, merely different. There are two ways out of the cycle of life and death. One is to become an ancestral spirit and the other is to become an unliving. It is only the prejudice of most ancestral spirits that teaches us the ‘Evil’ of the unliving. I do not deny that many unliving *are* evil, but having known both saintly unliving and diabolic anscestral spirits, we do not judge on outward appearances.
    The second type of ‘Dark Incantor’ is the ‘True Dark Incantor’ that you mention in question 3, and my words on them will be answered in that question. Therefore, I would have to say that as a force for tolerance, Dark Incantors are a Good Thing.
  2. A Light Incantor is one who worships the ‘cute, cuddly, fluffy’ ancestors and naively believes anything that these ancestors tell them. This means that they blindly condemn the unliving, and anyone who has dealings with them. While many Light Incantors (we tend to call them ‘Fluffy Incantors’) are nice people, their bigoted viewpoint is a character flaw that they must strive to overcome. Light Incantors at their best are merciful, kindly individuals and are a Good Thing, but at their worst they are bigoted, prejudiced fanatics and are a Bad Thing.
  3. The so-called ‘True Dark Incantors’ are not actually Incantors at all. They are nothing more than a bunch of necromancers out for some power. We have had dealings with these people, and I would definitely say they are Evil. They worship the unliving and the power of death, and in their own way are a reflection of the prejudices of the Light Incantors. They are their true opposites – worshipping the unliving and rejecting the ancestral spirits. They must be treated with extreme caution and not trusted an inch. When bargained with, care must be taken as everything they offer has a price and the price is sometimes too high. Ensure you know what you are getting and what you are offering.
    Having said that, they are no worse than the extremists of the Light Incantors. They are a Bad Thing, but not as Bad as people make them out to be.
  4. I know more about Tik-Tok than he himself knows, but I couldn’t possibly comment on who or what he is. I shall leave that to him.
  5. Nothing of any import happened. There were the usual squabbles and the usual people posed. The ‘Fluffies’ condemned the Healers Guild for taking a neutral stance on the Unliving, and we praised them for it. Apart from that, not much else even worth noting happened.
  6. The Incantors Guild claims to be the guardian of faith amongst the people of Edreja. This is patently false. The guild is only open to those whose faith tells them to worship ancestral spirits, and not those of darker faiths. In actual fact, the Guild is nothing more than a political body that represents those who get their power from the ancestral spirits. With its structure of having one ‘High Incantor’ from each Faction, rather than a High Incantor from each faith, it is a blatantly political body, although many inside the guild (even at the top level) refuse to acknowledge this and persist in saying that they represent the faiths of all the people of Edreja.
  7. This shows that Pape (who until recently had been somewhat of a fanatic) is actually listening and taking things in. The fact that he will embrace our tenets is definitely a Good Thing as he is a beacon of tolerance in a sea of prejudice.
  8. To us (the Dark Incantors) the Reunification of the Incantors is a Good Thing. It means that the Guild softens and becomes more open to ideas. It means that we no longer get persecuted for our beliefs.

Answers of the Lady Kitiara
Lady Kitiara’s response were brief, but most relevant.
I hope you understand that I do not deny the necessity of dark incantors for I accept that all ancestors have the right to be followed – it is merely that I believe in life and find that belief most incompatible with their kind of faith. For this reason I oppose their actions on Erdreja, and will seek to prevent their gaining too much power in the guild.
On another note – your question regarding Pape’s tabards is far more important than it may at first seem. Pape seems to change his garb at times which correspond to changes in his pattern. You will recollect when he was influenced by Schadel and wore bright colours. At convocation he wore a multi-colored tabard that I had not seen in a long time – and there is no doubt that at some point his pattern was not his own for he wielded dark reaver -though this may be a consequence of Durith calling on Dark powers – I am not so sure.

Answers of Vengryn, Inquisitor of the Incantors Guild
(Note this were written a while back and Vengryn, among others, now have powers granted him by the Dark Ancestors).

  1. The ‘dark incantors’ are a group of incantors who follow ancestors who have a darker aspect than most. Currently they have no true dark incantor powers. They may perform acts that others might deem wrong or evil but they can be useful and should not be persecuted for their faith.
  2. A light incantor follows an ancestor whose dark side is not dominant, They are not necessarily goody- goodies but can be regarded as ‘good guys’ in most circumstances.
    The split between light and dark incantors is arbitrary. Most ancestors have a light and dark side, some follow one aspect, others another. Overall the difference is merely attitude.
  3. Firstly, true Dark Incantors are not necromancers, though they were treated as such. True Dark Incantors are very much like light incantors in that they follow ancestors. The legends (and now The Facts) say they possess abilities to inflict a wound on touch, control unliving, beguile, possess and in the most powerful inflict fatal wounds, though this latter verges on necromancy.
    These True dark Incantors are required to maintain a balance in the faith. This does not mean an even, static balance, but a presence, a representation of all faiths. Without true dark incantors there would be no incanators of any kind. Their former reputation as necromancers has kept them in the shadows. Let us hope that now they may emerge once more. The first steps have been taken, let us wait and see.
  4. Tiktok misunderstands the true nature of dark incantation, He labels himself one but verges on the edge of the precipice into necromancy. This will not be tolerated much longer. His actions have paved the way for acceptance of dark incantors but he can now destroy all he has created by a foolish action. He must take care.
  5. The inner council meeting, I did not attend. I had business with some new recruits for the guild.
  6. The Incantors Guild has many functions, supposedly to keep all incantors informed of relevant information, to combat the forces of necromancy and to spread the faith in the ancestors through the lands.
  7. A tabard does not denote faith but allegiance. The black and white tree tabard is the Guild’s symbol, it is a sign authority in relevant matters. If dark incantors wish their own colours that is their choice.
  8. Re-unification would allow all faiths, all incantors to work together to help defeat enemies of the heartlands, be they fey, unliving, daemonic or ‘living’.

Answers of Pelleas Al’Davor

  1. A Dark Incantor is simply an Incantor and that is that, only the restricted viewpoints of mortal creatures lead people to think any differently.
  2. As above.
  3. A “True Dark Incantor” would probably be simply a Necromancer, one who defies the cycle of life. I would not call these people Incantors at all, Dark or otherwise, simply using the term Necromancer is enough in itself
  4. (text missing from letter)that Papa Tik Tok is in fact a Necromancer or is verging on the same, while I have not seen him create unliving or corrupt any living creature he has show abilites to control and use unliving creatures and materials. This would put him very close to a very thin line beyond which lies corruption.
  5. The council meeting was closed, and all within were asked not to discuss the matters that were put before the council elsewhere. What anyone would know is that Jihad and Stefan Louis were both called into the meeting for discussions at different points.
  6. The stated purpose of the Incantors Guild, according to Durith, is to promote the worship of the Ancestors, and to prevent Wars of Faith. This purpose does not include the destruction or healing of corrupt patterns, at least as stated to me.
  7. I don’t care what clothing someone wears.
  8. It means nothing, it is simply a way for Tik Tok and others that feel that they can get something from the Guild to apply their will to the Guild be threatening to schism if any disagreement with their policies occurs. This would mean that the whole Light Incantors/Dark Incantor thing is a Bad Thing. which has corrupted the Guild with petty politics.

This concludes the record of answers I have received to date on these questions. I did also Make So Bold as to put these questions to the Dark Lord King Gustav of the Vipers, but my notes are Greatly Confused and my memories of what he said also Most Clouded in my mind (not Alas down to Beer, most odd), other than Recalling Very Well both how Civil and how Reasonable he were in All Things. Also that he laughed Very Much at the question about TikTok, saying he was and were always misunderstood.